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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:27 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:43 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Ventura, CA
Hello Fellow Moto-Heads,
A couple of associates and I are planning to put together about 5 to 6 vintage races this summer, and I would like to know what your views on this would be. What would you like to see done differently than most of the other races you‚Äôve been too? What are the things you liked best about the races you‚Äôve been too? Do you think that the cut off point of pre 1975 is too soon for vintage bikes, or do you think it could be moved up to 1976? Do you think 1977 bikes could be competitive with 1980 bikes? My thoughts on this is back when theses bikes were the new technology, I remember lining up with bikes that where 2 years older or three years new than what I was racing, it all came down to how much money you had to go racing. So why put so much emphasis on the bike rather than the rider, for the most part if the bikes are within say 1 to 1 ¬? differences in travel what‚Äôs the big deal, as long as you‚Äôre racing on a vintage track? I think in today‚Äôs racing programs with the ‚Äúyou can‚Äôt have more than this much travel‚Äù is hurting vintage racing, in the old days I loved doing modifications to my bikes and going out and racing them, that was half the fun to me. But by today‚Äôs standards we‚Äôre limited to only so much we can do. There are so many bikes out there that are sitting in farms and garages collecting dust, that could be raced, but we don‚Äôt, and it‚Äôs do to restrictions and cut off dates to try and make racing fair. What can we do to help make our sport grow, and bring new people into it, who might have a 1976 CR250 or a 1977 YZ125 the way it stands now these bikes would have to race in the post vintage class, when clearly they should be racing with bikes their similar size in vintage? What do you think? :mrgreen:

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Don Brooks
Vintage Elsinores
Ventura, CA.
http://www.elsinores.com


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:06 pm 
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Location: Sacramento, CA
Hey Don,

It's a tough call either way, but my ideal series would be classified by time period and have only a few rules. 72-75 any period correct modifications allowed. 76-80 with no suspension or engine limitations. 81-85 no disc brakes (bikes with retro-fitted drum up front and stock drum rear ok). K.I.S.S.



Oh, by the way the Pro-Form pipe and Mikuni carb work great on my 79 CR125! I finally started riding it 3-4 weeks ago.

J

_________________
#829 The "Factory Novice"

1988 Honda CR250RJ
1983 Honda CR480
1981 Can-Am 250 MX6-B
1979 Honda CR250RZ
1979 Kawasaki KX250 A5
1978 Husky 250CR
1978 Honda CR250R
1977 Yamaha YZ400D
1977 Suzuki RM125B


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:26 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:20 pm
Posts: 906
Location: San Clemente, CA
Where are you planning to hold these races?

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Michael Stiles
1979 Honda CR250R Elsinore | 2006 Husqvarna SM510R | 2007 Service Honda CR500R-AF


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:27 am 
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You may want to see if you can open up the bottom end a bit. I mean it's possible end up with Brad Lackey on a factory works bike which is kind of intimidating for people to run against. I really think the top end is right and doesn't need any fixing. It is a great show as is.

Other races like auto and horse have things like claimer races. If I understand it correctly people can buy the car/horse for a fixed price after the race is over. Something like a claim price of $400 may bring out those Suzuki and Honda 90s.

Right or wrong I feel that is what vintage means to me. It isn't just about the great world beaters but is about the racing scene and the bikes used back in the 70's and earlier. Not everyone was on a factory works bike or had the money to build one. There was a huge mass of people and hardware out there who's sole purpose seemed to be getting beat by the factory works guys. Some guy on a DT175 wearing work boots and a snow mobile helmet kind of stuff.

Right now most of the participation is by people that already own vintage bikes which is a pretty small minority. If the sport is opened up a bit to people that would like to join or just own a cheap vintage bike it would be a much larger group.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:39 pm 
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Location: Ventura, CA
Thanks J, I absolutely agree with the K.I.S.S. principle. I think it’s the only way to keep politics out of racing and make it more fun. Let’s face it, the only reason we all do this is for the love of the sport, we’re not teenagers looking to be the next motocross star of tomorrow. So in fact if we don’t keep this sport fun and simple to do, all of us will just stop doing it. My idea is to have three categories of bikes: M1 would be up to 1976, M2 would be 1977 to 1980, and M3 would be 1981 to 1984. Now I know there would be some exceptions to the rules, like for instance. The 1977-78 CR125M is really about the same bike as the 1976, so why have it put into the M2 category, just because of the year? That just doesn’t make sense, I figure the simplest way is if the bikes look like their in the same category they should be racing in the same category. Which reminded me of a story I heard of a semi truck that got wedged into a tunnel and the driver could not get it out, and the engineers on the scene where trying for hours to figure out how to get this truck out with all there science and theories. When a car was driving by, a little girl in the back seat of the car leaned out the car window and said why don’t you try letting some air out of the tires? Anyway I would still like to hear from people and get there views.

Thanks J, I’m glad everything is working out for you, did I tell you that pipe and carb combo was great!

Hey Mike, We’re getting ready to talk to a few places, and soon as we have some conformations, I’ll let you know. Let me know what you think about the format?
Thanks Guys
:mrgreen:

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Don Brooks
Vintage Elsinores
Ventura, CA.
http://www.elsinores.com


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:22 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:20 pm
Posts: 906
Location: San Clemente, CA
I respect your need to hold your cards close to your chest, so I'll assume you are thinking somewhere in Southern California.

IMO, the market for historic motocross racing is over-saturated in this area, with extensive schedules from the two independent clubs - CalVMX and SVRG - plus AHRMA operating at a national and regional level. The end-result is less than optimial turn-outs which hurts the racing experience, and I assume diminished negotiating power with the track owners. There have been some false starts and encouraging moves between AHRMA and the local clubs, but from a consumer perspective it all looks a best a little clumsy. (This has all been discussed at length and in gory detail on the AHRMA forum.) Simply too many events for the average guy to commit to attending even half!

So I ask myself are these races going to be so compelling that I would give up my intent to race elsewhere? Any cleaner rule format is to be respected and embraced, but I suspect that people who have already accomodated the AHRMA rules won't see that much advantage in changing back. The most powerful bargaining chip would be access to a fantastic historic-style track that no other organization could offer, but can this sustain a race series rather than say a one-off event?

I hope that you will not take this personally or a reflection on your business which I hold in deep regard, but I think you are coming late to an established market and will face an uphill battle to pull this off profitably unless the under-lying economics are much better than what common sense tells me. The role model to aim for is the recent turn-out at the opening AHRMA National on a great track at Speedworld. Good luck!

Here are some closing thoughts: three motos per day with two to count. 1 hour practice early in a.m. for the rusty ones to get dialed in. Run as a package with an established event like the Elsinore GP. Run team events like the Hammer & Tongs people up North. Have people donate rides and raffle them to people interested but don't yet have a bike.

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Michael Stiles
1979 Honda CR250R Elsinore | 2006 Husqvarna SM510R | 2007 Service Honda CR500R-AF


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:26 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:43 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Ventura, CA
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the constructive input, and I have given a lot of thought already to some of the things you brought up like, having a last race of the day of any riding level and engine displacement called the 10 lap dash. Everybody pays $10.00 for the extra ten lap race, and awards of products and gift certificates would be handed out to the winners. Or maybe a team relay or team race as you suggested.

The Speedworld race was a great event, but in my opinion a little to long, I had my rider entered in two races, intermediate sportsman, and intermediate open, race 3, and race 13 It took all day to put in 20 laps, now yes it’s a lot of fun shooting the S&*# with all of our friends, but did we come to race or sit around and talk? I would like to see a more Des Nations type feel where all the experts from all three classes, 125, 250, and 500 line up on the same line, now you have around 25+ bikes on the line and it’s a race, and it’s fun to watch, plus it opens up a little more time to maybe squeeze in a few youth races. So now you can bring your son or daughter out and let them have at it, and maybe they catch the bug, and tell their friend on what a great time they had and maybe the next time his friend comes out with his father, and so on and so on, I think you get the point.

I’m by no means am looking to make any money on these events, I just hope we're able to break even let alone make a profit. I just want to promote Vintage Motocross to new people and yes it will be an up hill battle but I think it’s worth it. I love this sport, and every time I’m out at the races it brings back some great memories of the past, and I look forward to seeing all of my buddies every month. By the way I’ve talked with a lot of younger guys in their late 20’s and early 30’s and they like the idea of not having to put up with all the big egos at the local modern events, and having to negotiate triples an doubles, let alone wondering if the next so called Ricky Carmichael stars of tomorrow are going to land on them or not, because they to have to go back to work on Monday.

So the idea to donate a ride is a great one! I would be more than happy to bring out a few extra bikes for some new riders to try out Vintage Motocross, in fact I would think it would be a great idea for everyone in the business of VMX to follow suit. Look we all love to race, and BS with each other, but we have to remember one thing. We are the ambassadors of our sport and it’s up to us to keep our sport going, and I’m just trying to do my part no matter how hard it might be, but we need new ideas and new formats for racing or we all just become complacent, been there done that, and when it gets to that point, it just goes away.

P.S. The offer still stands for you, J, and Loren. If they come down to race the Nationals at Cahuilla Creek, and you can squeeze out of that conflict. I would be more than happy to take you vintage bastards out to dinner and drinks after the race.

Hey Loren, what do you think, I would like to get some thoughts from you as well on this subject, so why don’t you ring in?:mrgreen:

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Don Brooks
Vintage Elsinores
Ventura, CA.
http://www.elsinores.com


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:30 pm 
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Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Hi Don,

I'm not to keen on running my AHRMA spec bike against a "run what ya brung" format. (If that is what you are intending.) That being said I think what may get my interest to drive back down to SoCal would be the track itself. Particularly if it was someplace from back in the 60's or 70's when I lived down there. Any of the old places still around though?

Loren

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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

Loren Davis
51y


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:32 pm 
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Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Bastard?!?!?!?

My parents were married! Not to sure about Jay though.... :wink:

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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

Loren Davis
51y


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:41 pm 
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Location: Sacramento, CA
Was that before or after you were born? :P

J

_________________
#829 The "Factory Novice"

1988 Honda CR250RJ
1983 Honda CR480
1981 Can-Am 250 MX6-B
1979 Honda CR250RZ
1979 Kawasaki KX250 A5
1978 Husky 250CR
1978 Honda CR250R
1977 Yamaha YZ400D
1977 Suzuki RM125B


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:53 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:43 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Ventura, CA
Hey Loren,

All of the great ones are gone. Indian Dunes, one of my favorites, the International track on Friday Night.:cry: Saddlebacks Gone and we all know what happened to Carlsbad last year.:evil: To bad those where some great tracks here in So. Cal. As far as your concerns of racing your AHRMA spec bike, I think that most of us who race already have our bikes built for AHRMA. I’m not looking to replace or compete with any other clubs, I just want to run a different format for the fun of it, and maybe introduce new people to the sport. I was thinking about a 4 to 6 race series for the year from Northern Cal to Southern Cal, somewhere between the AHRMA Nationals and Regional series. Not trying to reinvent the wheel just trying to think outside of the box a little. Hopefully with the right help and support we can get this thing off the ground!

So are you and J going to drive down to Cahuilla for the races? :mrgreen:

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Don Brooks
Vintage Elsinores
Ventura, CA.
http://www.elsinores.com


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:53 am 
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Don,

I don't think Loren can make it and I'm about 50/50 right now. If I make it I'll just be spectating. Hopefully I'll get to take you up on your offer. :D

J

_________________
#829 The "Factory Novice"

1988 Honda CR250RJ
1983 Honda CR480
1981 Can-Am 250 MX6-B
1979 Honda CR250RZ
1979 Kawasaki KX250 A5
1978 Husky 250CR
1978 Honda CR250R
1977 Yamaha YZ400D
1977 Suzuki RM125B


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:26 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:30 pm
Posts: 89
I can only speak for the 1974 CR125 elsinore as that is what I raced most.
DO NOT allow a 1975 (you can tell the difference because the casting is closed above the exhaust port spigot on a 75 up vs it is open on a 74 cylinder)
The advantage of the bigger transfers, boost and exhaust port leave it somewhat ahead of the 74 cylinder.
Also there are several advantages internally that favor the 75 vs the 74

BUT I can attest that building many of each I can make the 74 just as fast.

Also PLEASE DO NOT let in the Honda SL's sure back in the day a Powroll piston 150 Honda Sl would be a fair match to the Elsie but not today where builders are using Yamaha streetbike pistons and altering the valve angle somewhat....keep the playing field fair in the use of new technology.

Other than that I would suggest keeping the classes to a minimum like it was BITD. that way for those that travel hundreds of miles you actually get some seat time.
Some of the best racing was at Jean Ramsay's Lincoln Trail Raceway AHRMA regionals where we got to race super long motos...THAT is what its all about.

Good luck in your series.

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1994 AHRMA National Champion Sportsman 125 Intermediate.
1996 AHRMA National Champion Classic 125 Expert.


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