Vintage Dirt Bike Q & A

I started buying and building up Evo bikes because that is the era I'm familiar with. I never jumped or raced bikes that didn't have at least 9" of travel, so I do not have the desire to race Vintage.

At the few combined events I have attended I get the feeling that Vintage riders don't really think much of the Evo classes. Does anyone else get that feeling in other parts of the country?

At this time the Evo events in Northern California are lightly attended and must be run with the modern bikes. Is this also the case in other areas?

I have been tossing around the thought of getting a Vintage machine, but only because it seems such a waste to travel across a few states and only race possibly 4, 5-6 lap Evo motos and then pack up and drive home. If I had a Vintage bike I could stay over the extra night and double my racing time. Why wouldn't the Vintage guys want to do the same?

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#829 The "Factory Novice"

1988 Honda CR250RJ
1983 Honda CR480
1981 Can-Am 250 MX6-B
1979 Honda CR250RZ
1979 Kawasaki KX250 A5
1978 Husky 250CR
1978 Honda CR250R
1977 Yamaha YZ400D
1977 Suzuki RM125B

Opposite with me. I've never ridden anything newer than my '73 CR250. It's state of the art as far as I'm concerned. Ignorance is bliss as they say.

One of the complaints I've heard amoung some of the vintage crowd is that even if PV runs on Saturday the track never really gets back to being a good vintage ride the next day. Assuming the track is modified for each era. Last year at Hollister they ran the PV on the same track as we rode on Sunday. I don't know if that was challenging enough for the PV folks or not though.

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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

Loren Davis
51y

I grew up racing in the early to mid 70's when suspension evolution took place. After 25 years away from bikes I got back into vintage racing. I did the typical thing and bought and raced one of the bikes I raced back in the day, a '73 CR250M. I had a lot of fun, but I also hammered my back that first year. I'm sure some of it had to do with conditioning, or lack of it, but it was enough for me to add an '83 CR250R the next year.

That was the first time I ever rode a bike with more than 7-4 travel. It felt really strange to me, but my back thanked me and I enjoyed racing the bike after I got used to it. The problem for me was that in our region we race Vintage and Post-Vintage on the same day and the '73 and '83 handled so dramatically different that alternating racing them on the same day was like playing tennis and raquetball. You can do it, but you'll never get really good at either of them. The Nationals were OK because you raced on different days.

The following year I picked up a '79 CR250R and put my '73 CR250M under wraps. I did much better that year. The two bikes were similar in travel and handling that it was easy to switch from one to the other. I still miss the old bikes though. Next year I'm going back to vintage and hopefully my riding skills have progressed enough over the past few years that I won't feel it in my back.

I race in the Mid-Atlantic region of AHRMA and over the past couple of years there has been a migration taking place, from Vintage to Post-Vintage bikes. The same can be said on a national scale. It is not uncommon to see more PV bikes at a National then Vintage bikes. I think it has to do with the PV bikes not being as hard on our old bodies, but also the new guys that are getting into racing old bikes aren't as old as us old farts and naturally they want to race now what they raced then, and "then" for them is mid '70's to mid '80's. Also, parts are generally easier to get for the newer bikes.

My opinion is this. Vintage and Post-Vintage bikes are all wonderful machines that transport us back to our youth. Who cares what year the bike was manufactured in? Bring 'em on! If it's older than 20 years then it's worthy of taking it out on the track and doing to it what it was designed for. Red-headed stepbrother? Well, if you consider Bad Brad's evo bike a red-headed stepbrother then sign me up for stepfatherhood!

This more a problem with the "flat earth society" (AHRMA) than it is with most riders. If you look at what is going on in Texas, the Northwest, Florida, SVRG in California, you will see that Vintage and Post-Vintage are existing quite well together.

Here in Texas, Evo-Sports runs not only Vintage and Evo on the same day, we also have Modern Support and (the horror!) minis. Amazingly, no one has fallen off the end of the earth and no world-ending lawsuits have been filed. You know, we even have an annual Pro-AM race that pays a $6000 purse.

I think a lot of it has to do with whether you want to race and compete or if you prefer to have a parade of nostalgia on a TT track. I started racing in 1971, raced through the suspension revolution and continued until 1987 with watercooling and discs. Other than adding some stupidly dangerous double jumps to the tracks , tracks didn't change a whole lot during that time period. Riders were able to go faster as the bikes improved but mostly due to the ability to take different lines on the better suspended bikes.

The answer to this problem is going to sort itself out in time as riders age and Vintage bikes crumble. Or is it as riders crumble and Vintage bikes age? Right now, the real issue is that the national sanctioning body still hasn't given its full support to Post Vintage and continues to pit the riders against each other. In time, they will see this as counterproductive to their cause and change, but probably not as long as the current powers that be are in control.

Dave Garner
San Antonio

I agree with Vintage Dave. AHRMA can't ignore the PV bikes anymore, not with them outnumbering the Vintage bikes at the Nationals. It won't be long until they have to admit who is buttering their bread and start treating the PV bread butterers with more respect.

I want to clarify something. In the Mid-Atlantic region the Vintage and PV guys get along famously and a lot of Vintage guys also race PV bikes. I see no fiction at all between the two groups. We also have modern support classes at some races. That is up to the track owner. At one track we even have 4-wheeler support classes. Not too crazy about that one, unless the track is muddy, then they smooth it out during practice and make it nice for the bikes.

Dave brought up a point about track design and that definately has an influence on what bike a person decides to ride. We're finding that tracks are not that willing to mess their track up to accomodate the Vintage bikes short travel suspension. That makes it harder on the vintage guys. I think that if tracks would realize that the doubles and triples are just lawsuits waiting to happen to them and just design a great course that is good for both Vintage and PV/Modern bikes they would find themselves in a win/win situation. A good example of this is Budds Creek. We race on the same track as the modern pro riders do. It doesn't beat you up, and it's a blast.

Loren, Nathan and Dave thank you for your replys.

It's not that I feel there is friction between the two groups, just that one doesn't seem too anxious to help the other out. If you go to the Northwest AHRMA site they very rarely post any pictures of the PV riders even at shared events. The regional organizations do a lot better job at supporting the PV and "Decades" bikes.

As for tracks, I attended 3 events at Honey Lake and found it to be a fantastic track! (athough the facilities aren't that great yet) It is a great, natural terrain, GP style course and everything from Minis to PV bikes were running on the same track. They even have a national there, so I guess Vintage would run the same track also. We need more tracks like this.

At the Madera National they ran on a small track that was better suited for Vintage, but on Saturday they had the jumps built up. They knocked them down before Sunday's Vintage races. I'm sure not every track wants to tear things up for two small events.

I see on the Australian VMX site that Brad Lackey raced his 82 Suzuki there, but he only ran Vintage at Madera. I was very disappointed he did not run on Saturday. I think if he would be active in PV here in Northern California it would help the cause.

_________________
#829 The "Factory Novice"

1988 Honda CR250RJ
1983 Honda CR480
1981 Can-Am 250 MX6-B
1979 Honda CR250RZ
1979 Kawasaki KX250 A5
1978 Husky 250CR
1978 Honda CR250R
1977 Yamaha YZ400D
1977 Suzuki RM125B

Maybe another thing to consider in this is the Classic bikes and what works for them in the vintage events. My '73 with only 7" and 4" could probably do a PV track without to much trouble. As long as you don't throw in double jumps. So maybe the transition from a PV track to vintage track for early 70's bikes is not all that hard. But if you consider that there are still guys running bikes from the 50's and early to mid 60's then the track transition may be harder.

Just a thought.

Loren

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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

Loren Davis
51y

I suspect this is due to no one taking pictures at the PV races for Reese to post. Reese Dengler, who runs the NW site, races vintage. A twin pipe CZ. Doesn't seem to be interested in PV himself. So he's not going to attend those events. I know alot of the photos on the site are submitted by others as well as some of Reeses own shots. If no one in the PV crowd is forwarding any shots on then there is nothing Reese can do about it.

He does have some PV shots in there so I think Reese will add them *if* he gets them.

Loren

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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

Loren Davis
51y

Thanks Loren,

I took shots at the PV events. I should have sent them in instead of complaining.

J

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#829 The "Factory Novice"

1988 Honda CR250RJ
1983 Honda CR480
1981 Can-Am 250 MX6-B
1979 Honda CR250RZ
1979 Kawasaki KX250 A5
1978 Husky 250CR
1978 Honda CR250R
1977 Yamaha YZ400D
1977 Suzuki RM125B

This one is running and running on the AHRMA Discussion Forum http://ahrma-bbs.zeroforum.com/zeroforum?id=11 I think that the realities of economics and biology will mean the post-vintage will have its day in the sun.

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Michael Stiles
1979 Honda CR250R Elsinore | 2006 Husqvarna SM510R | 2007 Service Honda CR500R-AF

2¢

As a spectator I can say it seems inappropriate to mix the classes the way I've seen happen during practice. I think "combine" is the term AHMRA uses.

Feeling like someone punched me in the gut from bottoming the suspension on all my vintage stuff has rid me of any illusions and delusions. I am more comfortable on a vintage bike then the newer stuff: The long travel suspension and high seat height makes me feel like I am on a rocking horse. That doesn't mean I don't think it is vastly superior to 4" of travel in the bumps.

It becomes a safety issue for both parties when you have a Brad Lackey going over a blind jump on a PV with someone on a 60's dual sport 100cc Suzuki on the down hill side. There is too much on track mixing going on between novice and expert, vintage and PV. Both parties, the lander and the landing pad, have legitimate gripes.

It's not a bright idea to mix up vintage, post-vintage and modern bikes. That's why CalVMX and SVRG keep them separate. Also allows you to get several practices in if you have bikes in different classes. Common sense says blind jumps and "maybe I will, maybe I won't" doubles are a recipe for disaster. Fortunately we get "historic" track layouts that don't have these. Also a mature attitude and respect for everyone riding and their machinery goes a long way...

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Michael Stiles
1979 Honda CR250R Elsinore | 2006 Husqvarna SM510R | 2007 Service Honda CR500R-AF

I read that the turn-out for the opening AHRMA National at Speedworld was 170+ post-vintage entrants on Saturday and 300+ vintage entrants. I would expect that to be more than enough post-vintage people to make a day's racing viable. However more the merrier!

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Michael Stiles
1979 Honda CR250R Elsinore | 2006 Husqvarna SM510R | 2007 Service Honda CR500R-AF